INTERVIEW WITH THE PHD MARILDA GONÇALVES DIAS FACCI

ABSTRACT

The interview carried out with the Brazilian Association of School and Educational Psychology - ABRAPEE president, PhD. Marilda Gonçalves Dias Facci, aimed to understand the path taken by the teacher in the School Psychology area, as well as the perspectives of this Psychology field, in light of Law 13. 935/2019, which includes psychologists and social workers in Education. The questions were formulated considering her history work; the achievements and challenges imposed on the field of Educational Psychology; the different areas of professional activity in this area; the challenges in regulating Law 13,935/2019; the psychological assessment conception, considering the Historical-Cultural theory and the current management’s projects for the future of ABRAPEE. The PhD. Marilda Gonçalves Dias Facci has had a notable role in the National Coordination aimed at regulating Law 13,935/2019 to implement the work of Psychology and Social Service professionals in Education, in all municipalities in the Brazilian states.

Keywords:
interview; school and educational psychology; professional activity; history of psychology

RESUMO

A entrevista realizada com a presidente da Associação Brasileira de Psicologia Escolar e Educacional - ABRAPEE, Profa. Dra. Marilda Gonçalves Dias Facci, teve como objetivo a compreensão da trajetória trilhada pela professora na área da Psicologia Escolar, bem como as perspectivas deste campo da Psicologia, diante da Lei 13. 935/2019, que insere psicólogas e assistentes sociais na Educação. As questões foram formuladas contemplando o histórico de sua atuação; as conquistas e desafios impostos ao campo da Psicologia Educacional; os diversos âmbitos da atuação profissional nessa área; os impasses para a regulamentação da Lei 13.935/2019; a concepção sobre avaliação psicológica, considerando a teoria Histórico-Cultural e os projetos da atual gestão para o futuro da ABRAPEE. Dra. Marilda tem tido atuação marcante na Coordenação Nacional visando a regulamentação da Lei 13.935/2019 para a efetivação da atuação dos e das profissionais da Psicologia e Serviço Social na educação, em todos os municípios dos estados brasileiros.

Palavras-chave:
entrevista; psicologia escolar e educacional

RESUMEN

En la entrevista realizada con la presidente de la Asociación Brasileña de Psicología Escolar y Educacional - ABRAPEE, Profa. Dra. Marilda Gonçalves Dias Facci, se tuvo el objetivo la comprensión de la trayectoria recorrida por la profesora en el área de la Psicología Escolar, así como las perspectivas de este campo de la psicología, delante de la Ley 13. 935/2019, que introduce psicólogas y asistentes sociales en la educación. Las cuestiones se formularon contemplando el histórico de su actuación; las conquistas y desafíos impuestos al campo de la Psicología Educacional; los distintos ámbitos de la actuación profesional en esa área; los impases para la reglamentación de la Ley 13.935/2019; la concepción sobre evaluación psicológica, considerando la teoría Histórico-Cultural y los proyectos de la actual gestión para el futuro de la ABRAPEE. Dra. Marilda ha tenido actuación destacada en la Coordinación Nacional con la finalidad de lograr la reglamentación de la Ley 13.935/2019 para la efectividad de la actuación de los y de las profesionales de la Psicología y Servicio Social en la educación, en todos los municipios de los estados brasileños.

Palabras clave:
entrevista; psicología escolar y educacional

Roseli: When and how did you choose the School and Educational Psychology field?

Marilda: During my undergraduate studies, my area of interest was focused, firstly, on the Work Psychology area and, secondly, on the school area. I started my profession working in a company. At the beginning of your career, Maringá City Hall opened a selection test for school psychologists. I participated in the selection process, was approved and hired. It is important to highlight that during my undergraduate studies I always worked at a Private College, in bureaucratic activities. I experienced the school space for a long time. I became a school psychologist after joining the Maringá municipal secretariat.

Roseli: Tell us about your educational and professional trajectory?

Marilda: I worked as a school and educational psychologist, at the Maringá education department, for a period of 10 years, from 1988-1998. After that, I started working at UEM. I applied for the supervised internship in School and Educational Psychology and I have always taught a subject in this area. The practical experience and theoretical training contributed to my increasingly identifying with the school field. I did a specialization at UEM, studying school failure and then I did a master’s degree and a doctorate in education, these two postgraduate degrees under the guidance of PhD. Newton Duarte, from UNESP - Araraquara. During my master’s degree, I researched the role of School and Educational Psychology in the municipal education network of Maringá. In my doctorate, I researched the teachers’ work, based on Historical-Cultural Psychology, carrying out a critical analysis of the Theory of the Reflective Teacher and Constructivism, which in my analysis empty the teaching activity. I also completed two post-doctorates: one at USP studying the psychological assessment of school complaints, under the supervision of PhD. Marilene Proença Rebello de Souza and the other at UFMS, researching the illness of Basic Education teachers, with supervised by PhD. Sonia da Cunha Urt. The possibility of seeing students developing, as they acquire knowledge, has always enchanted me. I agree with Marisa Meira (2000) when she states that at school there is a meeting between subjectivity and education. Starting from Historical-Critical Pedagogy and Historical-Cultural Psychology, I understand that the school is responsible for human formation. It enables the humanization process, as its purpose is to encourage students to take ownership of scientific knowledge and curricular content produced in the various sciences. The beauty of this area is seeing people developing, expanding their understanding of reality, becoming aware of how society is constituted, creating possibilities, in the collective, to seek transformation of society. In my professional career I came across Historical-Cultural Psychology and Historical-Critical Pedagogy, but our professional colleagues may have come across other important theoretical concepts in Psychology and Education that enable new views on human development and learning, which led them to a critical conception of School and Educational Psychology.

Roseli: In your opinion, what are the challenges and achievements of School and Educational Psychology in Brazil?

Marilda: There are many achievements, and, along with them, many challenges. An achievement, and at the same time a challenge, is to overcome the individualizing and naturalizing vision of human development, is not to reproduce the ideology placed in our society. Since the 1980s, with the publication of the work by Maria Helena Souza Patto (1984), Psychology and Ideology: a critical introduction to School Psychology, we have been seeking to provide a critical vision in the area of School and Educational Psychology. The possibility of criticism was expanded with the entry into Brazil, in the 1980s, of Historical-Cultural Psychology, which brought elements about the development of the psyche that considers the totality, which analyzes that this psyche is developed from historical-social conditions, considering man as the synthesis of social relations. This theory, based on studies by Vigotski (2000), states that learning promotes psychological development and emphasizes the fact that all individuals can learn and develop, through the appropriation of culture. It broadens the perspective about the understanding of human development, on the importance of the educational process in the humanization process, providing support for a professional practice that goes far beyond a particularized view of the facts that permeate the process of teaching and learning. In the 1980s we also had, in the scope of education, the elaboration, by Professor Dermeval Saviani (2003), of Historical-Critical Pedagogy, which shows us that the function of the school is the socialization of historically produced knowledge. These theoretical perspectives, based on historical and dialectical materialism, in the case of my trajectory as a psychologist, teacher and researcher, led me to have a new vision of man, society, learning, teaching work, among many other themes/concepts, encouraging me to think and propose work alternatives that consider the link among individuality, particularity and universality. Other reflections, even not based on these theories, were generated and strengthened towards a critical School Psychology, which brought advances to the area of School and Educational Psychology, contributing to overcoming a traditional clinical model of intervention. The big challenge, still, is to socialize this vision both among professionals in the area and with those who make up the school community: teachers, students, fathers and mothers, employees. In summary: the achievement is to expand the understanding of individuals in their relationship with the educational process; the challenge is for Psychology to be present at school, especially after the approval of Law 13,935/2019 (Brazil, 2019) and to do work within the school community, towards human emancipation. It is the contradictions that move society and the performance of School and Educational Psychology, permeated by advances and setbacks. I agree with Vygotski (1996/1927), when discussing the crisis in Psychology, in 1927, that the great question of practice refers to the method of analyzing man and society. As the author comments, the method is the alpha and omega of Psychology; Therefore, if School and Educational Psychology starts from a method of analyzing human facts guided by a vision of the totality that makes up the psyche and the educational process, this will be a great advance for the area, overcoming a stigmatizing, pathologizing, individualizing view of problems that occur at school, such as difficulties in the schooling process, school failure, violence at school, devaluation of the teacher’s work, prejudices towards people with disabilities, gender issues, racism, among many other aspects which have brought a lot of concern to those who deal with education.

Roseli: How do you see the importance of Education in the psychologist’s training, regardless of the intention to work in the area of School and Educational Psychology?

Marilda: The educational process permeates human formation, as I mentioned previously. It is through education, as Leontiev (1978) states, that the process of humanization occurs. Education is very important for becoming aware of reality. Science, as Vygotsky (1996/1960) proposes, based on Marxism, enables individuals to understand the essence of facts, to understand what is not explicitly presented. Therefore, I consider that Psychology, regardless of the area of activity, must know about education, must analyze the implications of the educational process for the development of higher psychological functions, human beings’ characteristic. When working with human beings, we cannot ignore the fact that individuals - children, adolescents and adults - may be studying or have already gone through the schooling process. This passage brings marks to the constitution of personality, as this is an open system, as proposed by Leontiev (1978); it will have implications for the way the individual relates to other people and to themselves. Education is part of the constitution of man. Analyzing how the subject is constituted, based on the appropriation of culture, puts us in front of an understanding of the historical-social conditions that form man. When working in the clinic, in the area of work, in social assistance, for example, we cannot fail to understand that many of the people we serve, experience or have experienced the educational process, which has implications for the subjectivity formation. Knowing about education, from my point of view, is knowing the human essence. On the other hand, I believe that Psychology is responsible for defending human rights, including the right to education. We psychologists need to fight, regardless of the area in which we work, so that all people have the guarantee of this right to access to cultural goods produced in human history.

Roseli: What are the intervention scopes of the Psychology professional in Education?

Marilda: I believe that the professional can act with the totality that permeates the schooling process. One of the first fronts of work involves working in favor of human rights, as I mentioned in the previous question, including education, working both in the elaboration of public policies and in their implementation. Within the scope of the school’s daily life, the intervention must include actions involving teachers, students, mothers, fathers, employees and the community. All actions must be aimed at ensuring that the school can socialize knowledge, and must have as its goal the appropriation of knowledge. The Technical References for the work of psychologists in Basic Education (CFP, 2019), as well as documents related to the implementation of Law 13,935/2019 - which proposes the inclusion of psychologists and social workers in education - explain several possibilities for intervention. The psychologist must analyze the entirety of the teaching and learning process. It must analyze the historical-social conditions that permeate the process of transmission and appropriation of knowledge. It starts from this totality, but must not forget to look at the individual, as this vision needs to take place considering the material basis. It is necessary to analyze the suffering of teachers, families, teaching staff and students when the teaching-learning process is not effective, but not just from the individual. Leontiev, when talking about the formation of consciousness, shows us that man appropriates reality, perceives reality, but that the formation of this consciousness is linked to meanings - socially given - and to the senses, which refers to the way in which the person appropriates the reality. Therefore, it is up to professionals not to focus only on understanding external reality, but to analyze how the individual appropriates this reality, constituting their personality. This is not about understanding the subject based only on external or internal issues, but rather by observing the dialectic that exists between the individual and society, taking into account production relations. Having this form of analysis as a foundation, based on this method of understanding the relation between individuals and society, it is possible to carry out activities with students, both in the evaluation process and in proposing ways to overcome the difficulties faced in the schooling process. The professional needs to work on teachers training, taking into account that pedagogical activity is fundamental for students to acquire knowledge and develop, valuing teaching work - a professional activity that suffers from precariousness, as happens with workers in capitalist society, which produces suffering. Another form of intervention involves mothers, fathers or guardians of students, bringing them to monitor the teaching and learning process, providing guidance, providing support for understanding psychological development and the schooling process. Furthermore, intervention with employees is also fundamental, as the entire school community must have a common objective, aimed at the schooling process.

Roseli: One of your study topics is Psychological Assessment in Education. Many educational psychologists understand that psychological assessment should only take place in clinical intervention, not in educational intervention. How do you understand this conception?

Marilda: As I said previously, from the 1980s onwards, the denunciation of the elitist nature of Psychology began, which individualized problems, pathologized children, used psychometric tests to assess intelligence, thereby bringing classifications without considering the context in which the individual lived. Many scholars and professionals in the country have built a critical School Psychology, bringing advances in understanding the process of evaluating difficulties in the schooling process. However, this criticism led to an understanding, for many professionals, that the psychologist should no longer carry out individual assessments, as this was a characteristic of traditional School and Educational Psychology. Psychologists began to deny the importance of evaluating students, considering that if they carried out this activity they would go against a critical view. From being an evaluator, to a psychometrist, the psychologist started to deny the importance of the evaluation. I am also against the evaluation that classifies, that discriminates, but based on Vygotskian assumptions, we can consider that this process can be carried out in a broader way, understanding the historical-social conditions that produce school failure. For Vygotski (1996a), the psychologist, when evaluating the development of individuals, must consider both what is at the student’s real level of development - tasks/activities that the individual performs alone - as well as what is at a close level of development - tasks/activities that the child performs with help, with mediation. Vygotski (1996b) assumes that all individuals can learn, if adequate mediating resources are used. He proposes some points that should support psychological assessment: analyzing the process and not the results; explain and not just describe behavior; analyze the origin of behavior and not consider natural what is crystallized in behavior; make a diagnosis accompanied by suggestions for overcoming difficulties and not just classifying individuals. In the process of psychological assessment of difficulties in the schooling process we have to involve teachers, fathers, mothers, pedagogical team and the student. I believe that we have to understand the student’s cognitive and affective development so that, together with teachers, family members and the pedagogical team, we can seek alternatives so that the teaching-learning process achieves its objective of leading the child to take ownership of the content curricular. We start from the complaint, to understand what is happening to the student, but we expand this view by analyzing the way in which society is structured, which does not allow everyone to have equal access to culture and material goods. From a broader view, we move on to the analysis of the teaching-learning process, seeking information from the teachers about the student’s difficulties and potential, identifying the activities that the school has already carried out to assist the teacher and student in facing these difficulties. In addition to the teachers, we involved the student’s parents and guardians in the evaluation: we conducted interviews with them focusing on understanding the student’s affective and cognitive development, what he/she successfully accomplishes and the difficulties he/she encounters in schooling and in everyday life, observing the conception that families and guardians have about learning and school difficulties. Finally, we carry out several activities with the student, seeking to analyze how the development of higher psychological functions is being processed, such as attention, memory, abstraction, creativity, among other functions, with a focus on observing the mediating resources that child uses to solve the proposed tasks. We also evaluate, in contact with students, the bond and meaning that the school has for them. In this evaluation process, it is also essential to partner with the school’s teacher or pedagogue, who will carry out the pedagogical evaluation and be a partner in completing the diagnosis. I defend the idea that the evaluation process should be an intervention process. From the moment we begin the evaluation process, teachers, mothers, fathers, pedagogical teams begin to have a new relation with the student, changing the way they interact and intervene with them. In each meeting with those involved in the school complaint, the psychologist can take advantage of these moments to provide theoretical-practical support about understanding and forwarding actions aimed at resolving the issue. In the evaluation, we understand that it is essential to consider the affective-cognitive process as a unit and always take into account that those involved in the process of psychological evaluation of school complaints may be in psychological distress and this cannot be trivialized. In addition to the student suffering because they are not meeting the expectations placed on them and in relation to the study activity, teachers and families also suffer for not understanding what is happening to the student and for having doubts about how to proceed in the face of such a problem. As you can see, this assessment proposal has nothing to do with clinical, individualizing action. It involves all those who have contact with the child, seeking activities/actions at school that promote academic success. The psychologist needs to understand what is happening to the student to help the school in overcoming difficulties in the schooling process. However, this overcoming requires objective actions, defined collectively at the school, so that the teaching-learning process is effective.

Roseli: You have participated intensely in coordinating the regulation of Law 13,935, which includes psychologists and social workers in Education. How was this law approved? What progress has it already been made in the process towards its regulation and what challenges still need to be faced for this to become a reality?

Marilda: The project took 19 years to process until its approval. Many actions were carried out with the support of the Associação Brasileira de Psicologia Escolar e Educacional - ABRAPEE, Conselho Federal de Psicologia - CFP, Conselho Federal de Serviço Social - CFESS, Conselhos Regionais de Psicologia, Associação Brasileira de Ensino de Psicologia - ABEP, Associação Brasileira de Ensino e Pesquisa em Serviço Social - ABEPSS e Federação Nacional de Psicólogos - FENAPSI. Representatives of these entities make up the National Coordination group for the implementation of Law 13,935/2019. The progress achieved was the approval of the law itself, which creates possibilities for hiring psychologists and social workers to work in education, in education departments, regional teaching centers and other forms of organization of schools at municipal, state and federal levels. I have always stated that our science has already produced theoretical and practical support that can demonstrate the importance of Psychology in Education, carrying out collective work in defense of the right to education. The challenges are enormous; I will mention just three: 1) understand the specificities of the psychologist’s work in education; 2) obtain resources to pay professionals and 3) create decent working conditions for professionals. There is still a lack of greater understanding on the part of education leaders, teachers and, in some situations, psychologists, that our action is linked to education and not to health and social assistance. The process carried out for the approval of the law, and even now with the actions linked to the implementation of the service in education, has shown how much difficulty people still have in understanding that our work is not clinical and that Psychology is at school linked to development of actions linked to the teaching-learning process. A challenge, therefore, is to show educators, managers, and society, in a broad sense, what is the responsibility of the area of School and Educational Psychology. As for financing, initially, in 2020, after several actions by these previously mentioned entities, we managed to include Law No. 13,935, of 2019, in the Fundo de Manutenção e Desenvolvimento da Educação Básica e de Valorização dos Profissionais da Educação - FUNDEB, through Law No. 14,113, of 2020, which becomes its main source of funding. However, there was a change in FUNDEB and, in 2021, it was defined that education financing for the payment of psychologists and social workers can be done, in accordance with the provisions of art. 26, Item II, of Law No. 14,276, of December 27, 2021, with the 30% portion. At the current moment, our actions are aimed at ensuring that psychologists are considered education professionals, returning professionals to the 70% of FUNDEB allocated to education professionals. Another challenge refers to how psychologists and social workers are hired to work in education. Currently, some states and municipalities are starting to hire, some through competitions, others through outsourced services or hiring professionals as freelancers. Our defense is hiring through a public competition, with a position against the precariousness of professionals’ work. We understand that psychologists and social workers need to be guaranteed to enjoy the labor rights acquired through many struggles carried out historically. These three challenges are the ones that stand out the most, but many others are necessary, and ABRAPEE has sought to contribute to overcoming them. The Association’s board of directors and the eight state representations have carried out several actions to inform the community and Psychology professionals about the specificities of professional activity in the area of School and Educational Psychology, about the resources available for remuneration of psychologists and how to contract and carry out services. The other entities, partners in the actions carried out for the approval of Law 13,935/2019, are also engaged in seeking to remove obstacles that are presenting themselves for the implementation of the Law.

Roseli: What guidance would you give to a recently graduated psychologist who is interested in working in the educational field?

Marilda: Firstly, continue your professional training, strengthening your understanding of school education, the history of education, the pedagogical policy proposals of Brazilian schools and the knowledge derived from Psychology that underlies support the performance. It is necessary to understand that the school reflects the way society is organized, that it is not an appendage of society and that the expectation, in a class society, is that it perpetuates the dominant ideology. Without this understanding, it is very difficult to think of actions that go towards transforming this unequal, exclusionary society. It is also essential to have a theoretical perspective that provides support for understanding human development and the schooling process. Consistent theoretical foundations can promote consistent performance. I work with Historical-Cultural Psychology, but other theoretical perspectives can also help and support the professional’s work. The professional may not be aware of which theory guides their practice, but behind their action they have a vision of man, society, learning, teaching, which is directing the intervention. A second point is that you understand what your political commitment is. I’m not talking about party commitment, but commitment to a class and, in the case of School and Educational Psychology in a critical view, the commitment refers to the working class. Our defense is that the school can fulfill human emancipation. The professional needs to have theoretical-practical tools to develop a practice that takes into account the potential of the entire school community. Therefore, it is essential that initial training and continuing training focus on theoretical knowledge about education and the intricacies that involve daily school life, enabling practices to be developed that promote the development of everyone involved in the schooling process.

Roseli: What are your projects for ABRAPEE, during your management as president of this very important association?

Marilda: ABRAPEE projects, from my point of view, are supported by the following principles: defense of free public education, with access for all to education; defense of affirmative action policies, inclusion policies, human rights policies and the reduction of social inequalities and injustices; defense of policies for training and valuing teachers, social recognition of teaching profession; defending decent wages for education professionals; defense of democracy in a broad sense and defense of the understanding of concrete man - synthesis of social relations. Our main project at this historic moment, together with the other members of the ABRAPEE Board, is to undertake actions so that the regulation of Law 13,935/2019 is carried out in states and municipalities. Political actions, preparation of documents, contact with educators are necessary to collaborate with the implementation of the service of psychologists and social workers. The participation of the entities already mentioned in this interview is essential for the implementation of the Psychology and Social Work service in education. We have carried out training courses for psychologists both at ABRAPEE nationally and at the Association’s representations. Now we are also going to propose courses for managers and educators, working with themes that permeate the teaching-learning process and showing how Psychology can collaborate in facing the difficulties that come between teaching and learning. Our proposal is, also, ensure that the Revista Psicologia Escolar e Educacional continues to be a qualified journal, which publishes research and practices developed in the area of Psychology and related areas. Our journal is evaluated by Qualis Capes as A2, and the team of editors and editors spares no effort to ensure that it continues to be a journal in the area of School and Educational Psychology and its links with education. This year we held regional events at state representations and next year, in 2024, we will hold the National Congress of School and Educational Psychology, CONPE, in São Paulo. This event is very important for us to publicize what has been produced and researched in Psychology and related areas. In addition to these actions, many other activities are being carried out by the ABRAPEE Board of Directors, by the psychologists who make up the various representations, providing information and provoking discussions about issues pertinent to education and human development. Just as Vigotski (2001) analyzes that affect and cognition are present in the teaching-learning process, this unity is also present in the actions carried out by ABRAPEE. At each meeting held in the activities proposed by the association, I see how much we need to be affected by what we are doing in our personal and professional lives. I am immensely grateful for the meetings I am having with so many people who make up the association, who participate in the debates and the proposed events. Participating on the Association’s board of directors opened new horizons for me, enabling new meetings with students, researchers and professionals who fight for quality education for all people.

REFERÊNCIAS

• Brasil. (2019). Lei nº 13.935, de 11 de dezembro de 2019. Dispõe sobre a prestação de serviços de psicologia e de serviço social nas redes públicas de educação básica. Diário Oficial da União, Brasília, DF. Disponível em: Disponível em: https://www2.camara.leg.br/legin/fed/lei/2019/lei-13935-11-dezembro-2019-789559-publicacaooriginal-159616-pl.html Acesso em: 10 jul. 2022.
  » https://www2.camara.leg.br/legin/fed/lei/2019/lei-13935-11-dezembro-2019-789559-publicacaooriginal-159616-pl.html
• Conselho Federal de Psicologia. (2019). Referências técnicas para atuação de psicólogas(os) na educação básica Conselho Federal de Psicologia. Brasília: CFP.
• Leontiev, A. N. (1978). O desenvolvimento do psiquismo Lisboa: Livros Horizonte.
• Meira, M. E. M. (2000). Psicologia escolar: pensamento crítico e práticas profissionais. In: Tanamachi, E. de R., Rocha, M. L., & Souza, M. P. R. de (Eds.), Psicologia e educação: desafios teórico-práticos (pp. 35-72). São Paulo: Casa do Psicólogo.
• Patto, M. H. S. (1984). Psicologia e Ideologia: uma introdução crítica à psicologia escolar São Paulo: T.A. Queiroz,
• Saviani, D. (2003). Pedagogia histórico-crítica: primeiras aproximações 8. ed. Campinas: Autores Associados.
• Vigotski, L. S. (1996). Teoria e método em psicologia São Paulo: Martins Fontes. (Trabalho original publicado em 1960).
• Vigotski, L. S. (2000). A construção do pensamento e da linguagem São Paulo: Martins Fontes.
• Vigotski, L. S. (2001). Psicología pedagógica: un curso breve Buenos Aires: AIQUE
• Vygotski, L. S. Obras escogidas IV Madrid: Visor, 1996a.
• Vygotski, L. S. Obras escogidas IV Madrid: Visor Distribuciones, 1996b.

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  This paper was translated from Portuguese by Ana Maria Pereira Dionísio.

Publication Dates

• Publication in this collection
  08 Dec 2023
• Date of issue
  2023

History

• Received
  21 Oct 2023
• Accepted
  01 Nov 2023